Saturday, June 18, 2016

MOP Breaks Down Outlander Starz Season 2, Episode 211: Vengeance Is Mine

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

You (and I) may be wanting the kind of non-sexual intimacy between J&C that we saw in this episode - which I think we have been getting all along - but a lot of the complaining that I have been seeing on Social Media is about the lack of Hot Sweaty Sex. That is getting old for me.

Anonymous said...

This episode was soooo good.

dolittle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Arleen said...

I have to disagree about Sandringham - he was a pedophile. People were so outraged when BJR raped Fergus. What about the boys Sandringham "chased around" and raped?

Anonymous said...

Has everyone forgotten that Sandringham betrayed Jamie and gave BJR Jamie's Petition of Complaint??? Then again, it's difficult to question a post that has suddenly been deleted.

dolittle said...

Wow, this recap went up fast! Thanks!

I was so excited to see this episode, especially after seeing a short clip of Jamie’s prayer while Claire sleeps. Turned out the whole scene wasn’t too much longer than the clip, but still, it was great. Apart from finally showing the couple in a quiet moment and showing us the love and closeness still between them, we also get to see a reminder that Jamie is a man of faith. Just a lovely scene :-)

Tracey, I think (but haven’t rechecked) that the other wanted poster was Charles Stuart.

I’m so glad Rupert survived this episode. I would have been surprised to see him go so close behind Angus, but DG does like to say that she is BJR, so I wouldn’t have put it past her.

I have to admit that the show REALLY lost me during the stuff with the Duke of Sandringham. I just couldn’t reconcile the changes the show made to the duke’s story with his ultimate fate. In the book, the duke acts on his own (NOT under duress from St. Germain), admits to hiring men to kill Claire so that Jamie will be distracted from interfering with potential Jacobite supporters, AND is also responsible for Hugh Monro’s death. So, the duke is CLEARLY evil, and Murtagh’s beheading feels like justice. But in the show, the duke claims to only be in cahoots with the comte because he is in deep debt, he claims to have pled the comte down from murder to rape, and NOTHING happens to Monro. So Murtagh’s axe-wielding bloodbath seems like just one more nightmare-inducing trauma for poor Mary Hawkins. I mean, he might be a slime-ball, but the duke IS her godfather. She has to witness someone sloppily chop off his head, and then is made to look at his head up close and personal. Poor Mary! So, Tracey, to answer your question, the punishment did NOT seem to justify the crime here. Rape is a terrible act, but, if we are taking an eye for an eye type of approach to vengeance, Murtagh should have chopped off a different body part.

I am ultimately torn over this episode. I loved most of it. It was our Jamie, it was our Claire, and it was much of DG’s dialog and stuff from the book. That really should have been enough. But the end of the Sandringham stuff was a bizarre horror movie scene that made no sense. Even after I re-watched the episode, that part still left me scratching my head.

Dolittle

dolittle said...

Sorry I deleted this after I first posted it, but I thought I'd made a mess of explaining it. However, I still think the brutal beheading of the duke - especially in front of Mary - feels much less justified than in the book.

dolittle said...

I had not refreshed my page when I deleted my comments and went back to the drawing board, so I hadn't realized anyone had replied to my post. Lesson learned. So again, sorry :(

Anonymous said...

I totally was appalled that Murtagh beheaded the duke for the attack on Mary and Claire ... in the book the duke had Hugh hung and that seemed to justify his being killed but in the show it just felt wrong ... the punishment didn't seem to fit the crime. yes, the duke was a very bad guy but still I did not like that whole scene in the show while the scene at Mrs Monroe's house seemed to feel ok to me. Otherwise a very good episode.

Anonymous said...

Dolittle, I agree with your comments about the bloodbath scene. It left me with an awful feeling. I didn't like seeing it and it seemed wrong to me that Jamie stood by and let it happen. I don't think it fit the crimes that we THINK the Duke did. No ... I am left with a bad feeling after seeing this scene out of a horror movie as you said. And it left me with a horrible image of Murtagh. Nope. It didn't work for me. Too bad because the rest of the episode was pretty good.

Brandy Bruce said...

I have to agree about the bloodbath. I loved everything else about the episode though! My husband and I both laughed out loud as Murtagh chopped off his head. Annnnd it turned into a B-level horror movie at that moment. I don't think the show succeeded in making the Duke seem horrible enough to kill that way. It Was over-the-top to the point of humorous to me. The bad part about that is that for a moment we're jolted out of the story because it doesn't flow. I do think this episode helped show the love between Jamie and Claire. And the pace was good And intense.

Anonymous said...

So hubby loved the decapitation and wistfully mused how he wanted to see BJR suffer the same fate. Highlanders, eh? What are you going to do? Maybe leaving Claire's POV we may get to see what actually happens at Culloden. Recent Book 9 teasers have alluded to Jamie remembering, so...
Loved Jamie praying over Claire and other deets we couldn't get with only her POV.
My only concern is how to fit the entire Mary/Alex/BJR line in one episode. Guess we'll see.
Therese in Nova Scotia

Unknown said...

First of all Carol, I've been meaning to comment on how good your hair looks 99.9% of the time so "Dinna Fash". What products do you use?hahaha! Now on to the good stuff... Yes to Tracey about why Jaime was so adamant in agreeing with BPC to take London. He said as much, knowing from Claires account that history recorded that the Scots turned back and never took London. That was probably the decision that sealed their fate at Culloden. So Jaime wanted to change this part of history in hopes that it will start changing the final outcome. Carol was wondering what battle got them in this position where the generals had no confidence in taking London. I think it was just the fact that, as Claire voiced-over, they had no support from the locals (lowland Scots and northern Englanders) that they were running out of provisions and didn't have enough men to fight possibly 3 English armies in front of them. But turning back in fact doomed their cause and led them to the defeat at Culloden Moor. It is so futile, as we know, but we still want to see how the Fraser's push on and keep trying. I love love love Jamie saying a Gaelic prayer over Claire while she slept. So romantic, but I must admit, when she woke I was hoping to see a loving, passionate physical intimacy between them. I needed, wanted to see this bond, after all at the end we will know she is with child again. No spoiler here as we already saw in episode 1. But thank you Diana for this beautiful quiet scene, which is why we all wish we had a Jaime. The next scenes were well done but basically sets Claire up to arrive at Belmont to reunite with the Duke of Sandringham. As a book reader, I know what's going down and I didn't mind the changes that were made to get to that point. Obviously their are time constraints so we can't go through exactly how it happens in the book. I also thought Murtagh's actions were completely justified in it's brutality. He actually did the same in the book but as this is a visual medium, it makes sense to show it. As much as we all love Murtagh he is still an Oath-taking, Vengeance-bringing, Highland warrior. It's not gonna be pretty when Murtagh fulfills his oath. A commenter also said she didn't like it when Jaime just stood by and let it happen. Jaime didn't just stand by but he actually "gave" the Duke to Murtagh to avenge Claire and Mary and to redeem himself. Jaime understands that Murtagh needs to do this. If you watch again, Jaime accuses Sandringham of saying and doing anything to save his skin. The Duke says "it stops today, I promise" (trying to save his skin again). Jaime says "As you say" looks at Murtagh and shoves the Duke towards him. And that is the end of the slimy Duke of Sandringham. I do love Simon Callow and sorry to see him go. Almost forgot, I loved Claires butchery of the Gaelic in her secret letter to Jaime, hilarious! Diana's wit. This is undeniably her episode and i wish she could write more for us in future seasons. I can't believe we only have 2 more episodes left, depression is starting to set in...

Colleen said...

Loved your recap! Kept me laughing... could smell Hugh through your TV... never even entered my mind. Loved, loved this episode and I wish Diana could write them all. As for the Duke of Sandringham and the punishment fitting the crime... Murtaugh wanted to kill him when he first saw him in Paris. Can you believe anything the Duke ever says? He had Jamie fight a duel for him with the promise of help with a pardon that S. never followed through on. S. was in league with BJR, that in itself is almost enough for me.
Remember the coded message S. sent to the prince promising money for the Jacobite cause... which gave the prince the clout to go to the French king because he was getting financial backing from other sources? S. didn't just try to straddle both sides, he was provoking the situation and helped get the Jacobite rebellion started. Did he really owe the Compte money? Did the Compte really have anything to do with the attack? Just because S. says so, I'm not so sure. He certainly knew there was a lot of bad blood between the Frasers and the Compte, questioning Claire about how she killed the Compte, maybe S. was lying to save his head...sorry, couldn't resist. Maybe he was questioning Claire about her involvement with the Compte's death to use that information to make trouble for her later. Here's a little more insight from the cast. http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/outlander-recap-season-2-episode-11-vengeance-is-mine-sandringham-dead-1201798614/ (sorry, couldn't figure out how to post this as a link)

I love, love Simon Callow and, though I didn't hate Sandringham the way I hated BJR, I think he's just as evil. BJR is more honest than the Duke in that he owns his evil, whereas the Duke lies so much I wonder if he even knows what's the truth about his intentions. The Duke keeps us all guessing, but that doesn't mean he's any more innocent than BJR.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the early post of the recap! SUCH A GREAT EPISODE - you're right, Carol, maybe the best one yet.

Murtagh's beheading of the Duke was FINE and even for this death penalty opposer, satisfying in the context of the story - the Duke was an evil pedophile sociopath and everyone knew it - totally justified action for a man like Murtagh. The Duke was probably lying about the Compte too - really, he was such a piece of CRRRAP [he's not Scottish!] even if he didn't have Hugh hanged [thanking DG or RDM for that! Really want to see him again! and gives me hope to see another BELOVED character that book readers think we may not see next season although they may want to break us into pieces and not save him - good for them for having me on the edge of my seat!].

Diana said that she had Murtagh announcing himself formally to the Duke just prior to the beheading [a la Princess Bride!] but they cut it - might be out on DVD - which would have been just delicious [or will be!]. Remember, murderous vengeance is all through the books even by men and women of faith - just go with it - it's NOT a story about 21st century people. For those that got the vapors - would you rather have seen him live so he could betray Jaime AGAIN? Jaime, book Jaime, would never have tried to stop Murtagh. Dont' forget, y'all, he f'ing protected BJR so he could do his heinous deeds. Also, it's premium cable, they ARE going to show the gore, people work REALLY hard on that stuff!

Carol, I couldn't be with you more on *what happens on the walk home* between BJR and Jaime?! What will they give us there?? Man, I REALLY hope Diana consults on that, since it was just a tad ornery of her not to elaborate in the book :-)

Emmys all around!

Anonymous said...

Great recap ladies as always. It's always a little jarring to me to hear the 20th/21st century words pop up in the scripts - Jamie's saying "seriously" and Claire wishing for a "tetanus shot."
Simon was a bit over the top for me - came off like an exaggerated villian. Mary came off like a wuss to me until she stabbed her rapist.
Murtaugh, I have to chalk it up to Scottish Warrior vengeance like was in "Braveheart." I think Murtaugh felt he failed Jamie so badly in Paris that it might have been so much more forceful.
This script came off well with DG, but also I think because with a script she had constraints that she doesn't have in writing and she was writing about a smallish section of the book. I think this really kept her focused and sharp in the action and dialogue. Very different styles of writing, so it was refreshing to see her take on an episode.
I always live tweet after the first viewing - could never do it against first run - and I still miss things that happen that you point out.
I'm not so married to the books that if they mirror, fine, just as long as it doesn't get widely off track - which I'm sure the producers don't want to do.
I know things are closing out when Carol starts to yawn regularly and then Tracey starts in - so funny!-jefsantamonica

Barb said...

Ladies, another great recap! Thank you! We lost my Dad in September so this is my first Father's Day without him. It's a tough day but watching your video this morning made me laugh. Out loud! Your commentary, pop culture references, good humor, knowledge of the books and pure enjoyment of all things Outlander are the reasons I make time to watch your video each week. Honestly, I've come to look forward to your weekly recap as much as the Show.

This episode was great fun and I agree with you both that it had DG written (literally) all over it! Jamie's Gaelic prayer jumped right off the pages...so gooood! Simon Callow was perfection. As much as Sandringham deserved his ending, I will truly miss Simon...again, perfection. I am loving that Mary found her lady balls and took care of her rapist. Murtagh could probably benefit from counseling...and a sharper axe. Dougal definitely needs counseling! And poor Rupert...I hope he can avoid Claire's needle next week :)

Sam and Caitriona are simply fantastic...they really have become Jamie and Claire while making them their own. This week in particular...I loved when Jamie said he wouldn't let her go. Right from the book...the words and the feels.

Thank you again for your recaps and the time you put into all of this!

P.S. Carol's impression of DG was spot on...and so true! Does it matter???

Brandy Bruce said...

I absolutely agree that Diana's wit shone through! I've missed it this season.

Last12C said...

Yeah, I'm sure the "speech" Murtaugh made would have sounded awesome in Gaelic but if they had translated it for the audience everyone would have heard "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." and the Internet would now be flooded with Princess Bride jokes!

Last12C said...

OOPS, meant this post to appear at the bottom!

Lisa-Jane said...

Thanks ladies. Love watching your commentary on Sunday nights when I m cooking. Agree with most of your analyses and find it entertaining as well.

Anonymous said...

I think the way Murtagh did away with the Duke was perfection. TV Sandringham deserved every last bit of that axe. Who plans to have a pregnant woman, the wife of a "friend' no less, raped as payment for a debt? That alone earned it for him. Plus he betrayed Jamie and literally handed BJR another reason/ tool to hurt him. Murtagh hadn't been able to protect Claire, to save Mary or to save Jamie from BJR (and Murtagh knew the ties that existed between Sandringham and Randall thanks to Claire). Given all of those things, I totally get why Murtagh snapped and chopped him up with gusto. Sandringham was, despite being super funny and charismatic, manipulative, evil and a pervert. I'm glad they didn't give him a Joffrey death.

Anonymous said...

Great recap! Your laughs are infectious. I was so looking forward to this episode too and couldn't agree more- it was so OUTLANDER. I want them to find other jobs for the current writers and just have Diana write every episode from now on. The speech, the humor, the intimacy, the grittiness, the violence even- so Outlander. I don't think anyone can honor the characters and story like Diana.

I loved the ending. It was so gory, so it sounds wrong to say so, but I enjoyed it. I didn't mind that Mary got to kill the valet and not Jamie. It worked. Sandringhams's end was totally satisfying. I think that moment was all about Murtgagh brutally underscoring his promises to Jamie and to Jamie's mother. He promised to look after Jamie and on his watch Jamie was tortured and raped, his pregnant wife was rough up, and her young friend was raped. Even though those things were out of his control, the guilt must have been awful. That scene had nothing to do with a clean death, or justice, that was all pure revenge. This season belongs to Murtagh.

Mandy said...

Hey Ladies, another great and hilarious recap!! There were things I loved....and some I didn't. The Gaelic prayer was absolutely beautiful. Simon Callow was just fantastic....so LOVE him, especially when he said, "...cook only comes 3 days," and the tower..."took the curls out of my wig!" So, delicious! And seeing Hugh Munro again was nice, too.

What I didn't like so much....the need to remind us (again) that Claire is going to be pregnant before the season is over (in the prayer). Jamie states that all the people are under his protection...yet soon as the bullets start, he jumps on his horse, grabs Claire, and high-tail it out of there. What about the women and children and the other men who didn't have horses. They were just left there by their protector. Just didn't ring true. The beheading was a little much for me especially since Murtagh told Jamie he would lay vengeance at his feet....so not sure why he presented the head to Claire.

In spite of those things, this is my new favorite episode for Season 2 (The Garrison Commander is still my favorite episode of all.

Mandy_inTX

Anonymous said...

Lots of people seem to be suffering from amnesia about the multitude of sins committed by the Duke.

And Jamie stood by and let it happen? No. As a man of honor Jamie GAVE Sandringham to Murtaugh so that he could fulfill his sworn oath.

Susan said...

Thank you, Ladies! I laughed and laughed at your impersonation of Diana. Carol, please, please, please do it more often. Diana is so cool and smart. I love to watch her comebacks in interviews: she never backs down.'
I could see her style in this episode. It was wonderful to see Dr. Claire in the opening: 5 minutes of Claire yanking teeth out was far superior to any madeup story line about her PTSD and showing WWII tanks and bombs. It was much cheaper to film, too: all she needed was a pair of pliers and a footstool. Jamie's prayer of protection was so poignant, and I have been waiting for a long time for one of those intimate talks he gives, late at night in bed, to Claire.
I agree that the book's foundation for the beheading was more justifiable, in that Hugh was hanged and he brought the head to Hugh's wife. I always wondered how this murder might taint Jamie and be traced to him but it was never mentioned in the book. In the show, they are all witnesses and therefore all involved in the killing...even worse, in my opinion, but the show may never bring up the subject again.
On Twitter today, Diana replied that Ron asked her to change the Hugh part. Simon Callow was magnificent and over the top and I enjoyed watching him.
The richness of meaning in the dialogue, the Scottish references, the Gaelic, the humor, Jamie's tender prayer, Dr. Claire, all were Diana's bringing to life some of the essences of her book. We need to treasure this because she said she can't write more scripts AND finish Book 9!

Unknown said...
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Anonymous said...

Loved this episode, my favorite of the series. It kept to the spirit of the books, if not to the exact story-line. Thank you Diana Gabaldon! Mary Hawkins went from a hand-wringing "not in my nightgown," to a ninja murderer. You go, girl. The Duke, although I will miss his SC's smirking and funny commentary, got what he deserved. Murtagh acted as he should, a fighting Highlander, living by a code of conduct and acting on that code--a man true to his word. (Have to say that Simon C. and the actor portraying the Bonnie Prince have been stealing every scene in which they appear. Miss you already, Simon!) Julie

Glee said...

As usual loved the recap! I always watch an episode twice then listen to your recap and then behold I've missed details that you two have noticed and so I watch it again. Of course the watching it again the third time are the only ones I let my family see me do. I never reveal that I watch an episode many more times and I know that they wouldn't read this either so I'm in the clear!! (Fan geek much? LOL). Anyhoo, loved this episode completely and we laughed so much when the Duke tells Mary to go to bed for the umpteenth time!!

Sadie G said...

Hey! You ladies had more fun in this recap than maybe ever before!! It's fun to watch you crack each other up! :)

I've been meaning to comment this for a while, but you'll never guess what I've found in my recent reread of Outlander: 2 (or maybe 3) times when a character says "Mark me" !!!!!!!

I read on my iPad so it isn't easy to flip pages, but I've highlighted 2 Mark Mes, and I could swear there's another one I can't find!!! I didn't even notice them in my first reading, and I didn't think I'd ever heard the expression before BPC started saying it in the show!

I just LOVED this episode! Y'all are right - it was like living inside the book!! It was exactly what I'd hoped the series would be like. I really enjoy the series on a whole, but this episode gave us a glimpse of how awesome it could be! Ive been able to enjoy the show for itself, knowing I can find more fulfillment (for lack of a better word) in the books. I'm hoping the other writers will see the book fans' reaction to this episode and pick up on what we loved about it for the future... I wonder how many episodes have already been filmed in season 3?

On another note, Tracey, I promise TURN is an awesome show!! Give it a try! Once you figure out who the characters are, it gets soooooo GOOD!! I was thinking about it and I don't think you have to be a Rev War buff to enjoy it... As long as you enjoy history (or even just learning about the past, even if it's not like History class in school) to some extent, and like seeing what people wore and how they lived, you'll like it! :)

See y'all next week! ;)

Unknown said...
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Unknown said...

Another great recap Carol and Tracey. Love you two...and I loved this episode so, so much for all the Highlander speak and behaviors that DG knew had been lacking in S2 for far. My husband, non-book reader and show watcher, LOVED this episode the most from the entire season.

One quick thought that occurred to me with the Claire pulling teeth scene. I think DG was cleverly trying to remind us that the task they were up against trying to change history was no easy task... the expression "like pulling teeth" came to mind. JMHO

dolittle said...

>>"Lots of people seem to be suffering from amnesia about the multitude of sins committed by the Duke"<<

I think this statement reflects the main flaw of this episode. For such a violent, over-the-top, and uncharacteristly gruesome act (Outlander, thankfully, is not Game of Thrones), which is meant to be seen as a righteous carriage of justice, the duke's accountability should not be the least bit questionable or distant to our memory. No one should have to go back and do their own job of connecting the dots to determine what was implied, what was fact, and if the duke fully deserved what he got.

For one thing, there should never have been any mention of the comte. As in the book, the duke should have been solely responsible for the attempted murder of Claire (even Diana, in the podcast, said she didn't know why they made that change). And without Munro's hanging, what this episode needed was one truly damning reveal from the duke that would have had all of us yelling, "Off with his head!" There is such a reveal in the book, but it wasn't even mentioned in this episode - and that really puzzles me. By not including it, I think they missed a great opportunity to satisfy all of us with that bloody ending.

In the book, this is the section where Claire learns for certain that Jack Randall works for the duke. The duke also reveals, without an ounce of repentance, that he is fully aware what kind of man Randall is and that he knows all about Jamie's suffering. Sandringham tells Claire that BJR does his bidding because the duke gives Randall what he wants in return: opportunities to inflict pain and punishment. If this episode had only had the duke crowing gleefully about his support of Randall, and about the torture inflicted on Jamie, that ending would have been much more satisfying.

We were all forced to witness Jamie's torture and rape, and to witness the repercussions bleed over into too many of this season's episodes. As that affected the closeness between J&C (my biggest complaint), I would have loved seeing Sandringham fully admit his part. If he had, I would have been cheering and fist pumping with every blow of Murtagh's ax.