Thursday, February 4, 2010

OK so I slept on it...

SPOILER ALERT: Dinna read unless you have finished Chapter 99 in  The Fiery Cross.

Havena read any of the comments from last night's post... because I wanted to let you all know how I feel after sleeping on it and thinking it through on my own. And now I can honestly say, I don't think Jamie has feelings for Laoghaire. I think he's being a typical man.  When he heard Laoghaire was getting down and dirty with someone at her house, he got jealous - not because the other man got to be with Laoghaire - but because the other man got to please Laoghaire; something he could never do. And in typical male fashion, his chest puffed out - he started beating on it whilst chanting the theme from Tarzan - and got his feathers in a dander because he wasn't "the best". Or at least "good" (in her eyes) in the sack. It's all about performance... and men all want to know they're performing well in the  bedroom.

I think what threw me was the dream. I think I thought "well if he's DREAMING about her - he must still want her!" when really the fact is that he was dreaming about not being able to please her. I am just happy they are NOWHERE NEAR Scotland at this point... because that could get ugly.

PS - I'm willing to bet there are no guys who read this blog - but if so, I would LOVE LOVE LOVE your opinion on this if you've actually read The Fiery Cross. And please don't take it personally; I could go on for hours about womenfolk's insecurities.

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

I remember that, when i read this chapter (many years ago), i thought that Jamie was simply jealous.
Let's see: Jamie has lost his wife, re-married with Laoghaire what means that, in his scottish way of thinking, he is his husband-owner.
So, in his inner self he still feels tha he's Laoghaire's husband, owner and protector, so having read all that thing about the other man makes Jamie remember her and feel simply jealous.

I don't think he loves her, but Diana tells in many ways in her books that scottish men have high primitive instincts, so possession is one of them (maybe higher than others)

I think i must say hello to you, i'm a spanish follower of your journal that enjoy a lot reading your reviews :)
Sorry if my english is not quite good, i'm trying my best to write properly.

Keep reading! Give Jamie a chance! he won't dissapoint you.

Tracey R. said...

Atalaya79: if you can spell "Laoghaire" correctly, your English is awesome... ;-) And you make some good points!

Diana said...

OK... so maybe I should have read this blog entry before I commented on the last one! Whoops! :) I think you hit the nail square on the head with this one, Carol.

Anonymous said...

I think Carol in absolutely right - to me Jamie's dream does not signify that he loved Laoghaire. (Although when I first read it I had just the same response; WHAT IS HE DOING?!!) Now though I think it might be a very seperate emotional respsonse.

He'd convinved himself she was frigid as a Highland icicle because of past bad experience (If I remember way back in Voyager he put the blame on childbirth or a former husband) rather than any real fault on his part. Now he discovers she's enthusiastically matress hopping with someone else and his pride is stung

However I also think he's beginning to feel guilt that he misled Laoghaire in what he was able to give her on an emotional level within marriage - because lets face it after loosing Claire that would be a big, fat NADA.

I'm definately NO fan of Laoghaire but I just think he's beginning to re examine his treatment of her and where the fault might lie.

Louise

Anonymous said...

Sorry about all the spelling mistakes above - just typing way too fast!
Louise

Anonymous said...

Jamie has an extremely strong sense of responsibility towards those he feels are in his care and that would have included Laoghaire once he married her. He married her because he was lonely and had no reason to believe he would ever see Claire again. He never pretended he loved Laoghaire, but once he became her husband I believe he hoped for companionship and a relationship that gave him a purpose in his life, if not love.

Once he took on that role, he wanted to do everything he could to be the best husband, step father and provider that he could be.
He succeeded in being a good step father and provider. But, Laoghaire realized Claire was still between them. He couldn't figure out what he was doing wrong. He had to make assumptions about what it was he was doing in bed that upset her, but he wasn't sure. He tried to please her, but if someone won't tell you what is wrong, yet are angry and sullen most of the time, then the chance of making things worse is high. Even Jamie has his limits, and walking away from the marriage became the only option for him.

I think he definitely viewed that as a failure on his part in his responsibility toward Laoghaire more than anything else. Yes, there was male ego involved and I found that part irritating to read, but I don't think his ego was the whole basis for his obsession in wanting to know why he couldn't please her.

Anonymous said...

According to DG, Laoghaire did not mean to kill Claire. She just meant to make trouble for her, not to harm her in any way. This is what Claire believes and that because Laoghaire was only 16, she didn't understand the ramifications of her actions. Laoghaire's actions were not malicious in Claire's mind and therefore not worth mentioning to Jamie.

I don't really follow the logic in that. Claire and Jamie talk about what happened after her rescue and at least one other time later in the that book. I don't know why Claire would not start at the beginning regardless of the fact that she felt Laoghire had not meant any harm. Actually, considering all the intrigue going on with Dougal and Jamie's mistrust of his uncle, I wondered why Jamie didn't ask Claire for every detail himself.

But, if he had and knew about Laoghaire's part, he would never have married her and then all the stuff that happened because of that marriage wouldn't have been in the book.

Tracey R. said...

Anonymous--have wondered the same thing re: why didn't Claire tell Jamie about Laoghaire's part in the witch trial thing way early on. I just assumed she did after Jamie had rescued her back in Outlander and she confessed everything about the past to him, which made it doubly strange to hear in Voyager that he had married her. When he said in FieryX that he had never heard that story, I was like ???????. But you're right, him knowing from the get-go would not make for good drama.

Purgatory Carol said...

Atalaya79 - your English is great and I'm thrilled that you're posting comments. Please keep commenting! :)

Dinah - I'll head over to the last post and read your comments.

Anonymous(es) - love everyone's thoughts. Isn't it wonderful how these books get our juices flowing and make us all think and discuss and think some more? I don't know what I'll do when I've finished the series and have no more Jamie to over-analyze. I suppose I'll just start reading Outlander again!

PS - when I saw "according to DG, Laoghaire didn't mean to kill Claire" - I (stupidly) thought it was a spoiler from one of the next two books and FREAKED OUT. LOL!!!! I called (my sister/Outlander mentor) Tracey last night at like 11PM and sounded like someone died in real life. I was like "there is a spoiler on the blog and I don't know what to do". Then she convinced me to read the whole thing and I realized the comment was from Outlander and I canna TELL you what a weight was lifted off my shoulders! Isn't that so funny???

Anonymous said...

Well I guess I'll be the male voice Carol is looking for although I just came across all these interesting comments two years late. :) I think Carol is spot on. Jamie's ego just can't handle the role of playing second fiddle to an unknown lover of Laoghaire.

Have really enjoyed reading all the comments. It's nice to share, albeit two years late, the discussions Carol and you all are having here.

Jerry

Purgatory Carol said...

Welcome, Jerry! You're not late at all. We are "All Outlander...All the Time!" Come hang with us at chat on Monday nights! :)

karenc1985 said...

This was the point where I needed to put the book down and regroup - that mechanical sex scene after Jamie learns of Laoghiere’s dipping and dabbing back in Scotland. I do understand everyone’s anger with Jamie. I share it. But are you not, perhaps, as I, a bit perturbed with the depiction of Claire’s eventual response?

She was hurt, dammit! I wanted her to be human, not to rise above! Not to be some mature Wonderwoman who, putting aside her own feelings, goes out and “takes care of her man.” Diana is so expert at evading black and white characters. I wanted to see a little gray, here. It doesn’t matter how violent, or passionate, or gentle any of their previous couplings – there was no question they all were with HER. And now, he saw Laoghiere's face in hers! So, I don’t want to believe that she ran out to the barn to stoically stand there until HE calmed down. She was stunned and feeling as though slapped. I want to believe she grabbed blankets, made a pallet in a closet somewhere (there were probably no closets built during that time, but you get my drift) and balled up in a fetal position. And I want to believe that when HE found HER, and reached out to touch her, she drew her knees in even more and her sob was deep and raking. And, Lord, I hope his heart would have broken seeing her this way, and that he swallowed - even an apology, because he would have realized it was not enough. Nothing else. Time for talk later.

karenc1985 said...

Continued, please.
And, later, when that time for talk came, surely they might say some of the same things iterated in the book. He certainly can tell her about his struggles with the ambivalence of love. But, when he asks her if his failure with Laoghiere was because of him, the answer is unequivocally yes. Honesty! Just like the failure between Claire and Frank was because of Claire. And all of that is okay, because, though it hurts, this is not about prowess. Rather, it’s the failure that assuredly occurs when you settle for less. The perfection of Jamie’s and Claire’s union lies in the beauty, despite the clarity, in which each sees the other. How lucky are they that they have it. But that higher order of connection has an ironic twist. Like the swans mated for life, they cannot share that level of intimacy with anyone else. That, in fact, their sense of each other is so powerful, so overwhelming, so obvious, should they attempt to be with someone else, that someone else will instinctively realize it and do all they can to self-preserve. And, of course, it will affect the act itself. It will affect the entire relationship, and it will hurt the other person, and they will have been responsible for that hurt. (Frank didn't deserve that. Laoghiere . . well. Just desserts, you know.)

And when Jamie asks the crucial question: if his face ever becomes Frank’s while they are making love, Claire will be able to remind him that it is HER face that is an open book. She will let Jamie know, in no uncertain terms, that if he has to ask the question, that IS his answer. For Claire, there WAS no question, was there? We never see an indication of Frank succeeding in invading their love making, because Claire staves him off – even in the beginning when she plans to go back, and even when his ghost invades her dreams.
She may decide, at this time, to tell Jamie of lying in Frank’s bed while he was out with other women – or not. (How, in several thousand pages has she not done this, yet?) If she does, she might say how on a level she welcomed Frank’s myriad dalliances because they allowed her to justify pulling away from him. But she would definitely, definitely have responded that Frank was indeed in their room watching them that night, and whispering to her, vehemently, perhaps somewhat triumphantly, that NOW, finally, she has a taste of what it is to bed the person you love more than life itself, all the time knowing that they are making love to someone else. That’s her purgatory, but also her truthful response to Jamie – and to herself.

And, by the way, Jamie no longer get’s to ask Claire, “Haven’t I always been honest with you?” Not after Laoghiere.